A Portrait of Edward V and Perhaps Even a Resting Place?- St Matthew’s Church Coldridge

Medeival-Stained-Glass-16th-Century-Edward-Fifth-Figure-Coldridge

Stained glass image of Edward V Coldridge Church, Devon,  

This wonderful church in Devon contains some little gems including a charming portrait of the young Edward V  in  a stained glass window,  king for such a short while.  

The story of Edward and his brother, Richard of Shrewsbury is well known,  their disappearance still a matter of great debate and  well documented elsewhere so I won’t go into it here.    Over the years his ‘murder’ has, in general,  been attributed to his uncle Richard III but now more enlightened historians plus a great band of Ricardian followers have taken up the cudgel on his behalf and are now disputing that version of events and seeking to find the truth.  Whatever that truth is, and personally I think they were separated and then taken to places of safety, it is hard not to feel sympathy towards the young boy who for eleven weeks was king only to be informed this was not actually the case.  For all his short life up until then he had been shielded from the harsh realities of life and utterly indulged as heirs to the throne are.   Even while still a tiny child his wardrobe was extravagant.  A surviving account records clothing being delivered for his use not later than November 1472:  five doublets priced 6s 8d,  two of velvet –  purple or black  – and three of satin,  two being  green or black,  five long gowns price 6s 8d,  three being satin –  purple,  black and green and the others of black velvet;  two bonnets,  price 2s,  one of purple velvet lined with green satin and the other of black  velvet lined with black satin;  and a sixth,  even more splendid long gown cloth of gold on damask priced £1 (1) .   When they broke the news to him and  reality kicked in – there was to be no coronation, no crown and a complete and utter loss of status – it must have come as  a massive, massive shock and through no fault of his own.  Poor little blighter.  That fault and blame must land fair and square on his parents shoulders, particularly his father.  Yes the buck stops with Edward IV who kept his brains in his pants and a lot of people paid a heavy price for that…tsk.   Historian Michael Hicks in his biography of Edward V say as much:  ‘The blame rests firmly with Edward V’s father whose dishonourable conduct,  faithlessness and duplicity as much as his sexual immorality was two decades later to place in doubt the title of a son who had not then even been born’ (2 ). 

Not surprisingly because of the window, which is in the Evans chapel, and a tomb with an effigy of a young man, John Evans, the story has grown that this church could be the final resting place of the disappeared Edward V.  John who died 1511,  is said to have came from Wales – thus the name Evans which is Welsh –  EVans – Edward V –  one time Prince of Wales – get it? – please keep up at the back dear reader.   It should also be remembered that Ludlow, where Edward spent most of his life up until 1483 was in the Welsh Marches and not Shropshire as it is today.   The effigy is  wearing chainmail under his robe and the story goes that John turned up in Coldridge in 1485 after the battle of Bosworth.  IF he had been Edward he would have been around 15 at that time.     It is indeed strange and as the author of an article on the Devonchurchland  website (and what a beauty of a website!) points out  why would a small church ‘in a gritty little village lost in the boondocks of Devon’  have such a wonderful royal and extremely rare window.   It  is also pointed out the plot thickens for John Evans was given ‘Coldridge Manor and a job as keeper of the deer park by Thomas Grey, the half-brother of Edward V’.  This much is true, confirmed by  historian Michael Hicks in his biography of Edward,  that  the village of  Coldridge was once the property of Thomas Grey Marquis of Dorset, Elizabeth Wydeville’s oldest son and that Sir John Evans was indeed his park keeper.  Crickey!  John must have at some stage come to the attention of Henry Tudor and left an impression as he appears to have been knighted  and thereafter known as Sir John Evans.  

There is also a medieval stained glass portrait of a man who appears to be holding an open crown very similar to the one hovering over Edward’s head  – you can clearly see the fleur-de-lis at the bottom of the portrait.   If you look closely you can also spot an ermine collar, ermine would of course only been worn by the nobility.    How strange. Is this a portrait of John Evans, who if he was indeed Edward would have been around 41 when he died.  

image

Medieval portrait of a man.  He appears to be looking down at an open crown which is almost identical to the one in the image of Edward V.   Is this man the mature John Evans/Edward V? Compare to the image of the young Edward.

edward-v-stained-glass_med_hr-2  

 

  • IMG_7676

IMG_7666

John Evans, his effigy in the Evans Chapel, gazing at the window depicting the young Edward V. The effigy has an angel at his head carrying a shield inscribed with his name ‘John Evas’ (sic). 

Apparently according to the article,  and thank goodness for it,   there are ‘folk looking into it, one of them the lady who discovered Dick’s body in that car park’.   So lets hope the indefatigable Philippa Langley does indeed get to the bottom of this mystery and no doubt the late Dr John Ashdown Hill will be cheering her on.  Meanwhile John Evans’ effigy gazes in perpetuity,  at the portrait in the window said to be that of himself,  to this day.

However back to the church.  These are just a few of the many delightful photos I have taken from Devon Churchland, after being alerted to this amazing website by a post on the  Medieval Buildings Facebook page – thank you, thank you thank you!     

image

Coldridge Church of St Matthew under a glowering Devon sky.

image

Ancient priests door

image

Carving in the Rood screen

image

Another view of the Rood Screen

image

Medieval pulpit.  Once possibly gilded.  Can you imagine?

image

Detail of the Pulpit carving..

image

Close up of the fine carving…just no words!

image

Wooden ceiling of the church

image

Screen carved by Breton craftsmen – rare.image

image

image

Medieval benchends..

image

Examples of the numerous wooden roof bosses

image

The alter with east window above

image

The lectern.

IMG_7664

IMG_7667

image

Could these portraits and the effigy be one of the same person – Edward V?

So is the portrait in the window really that of Edward V and was John Evans actually Edward reinvented? You will have to make your own minds up dear readers. Hopefully one day further research into Sir John Evans will prove or disprove this intriguing story once and for all.

In the meantime its tempting to speculate which leads to further questions :

If John Evans was indeed Edward what where his thoughts on the young man known as Perkin Warbeck who claimed to be Edward’s younger brother Richard? Would Warbeck’s brutal fate in 1499 have strengthened his resolve to remain incognito especially if he liked his head where it was – on top of his shoulders?

Did Elizabeth Wydville who died in 1492 go to her grave with the knowledge that at least one of her sons was safe and living in rural Devon on his half-brother’s property?

And finally did Henry Tudor,  who seems to have spent a substantial  part  of his reign being plagued by imposters,  actually knight the very person whose whereabouts were so elusive and troublesome to him?

(1)  Edward V, The Prince in the Tower, p.63.  Michael Hicks.

(2) Ibid p.48

If you have enjoyed this post you might like Edward of Middleham ‘Son to Kyng Richard and the Mysterious Sheriff Hutton Monument’

38 thoughts on “A Portrait of Edward V and Perhaps Even a Resting Place?- St Matthew’s Church Coldridge

  1. On a website about the church it mentions “Some 15th-century glass remains, though it is much fragmented. In the Evans Chapel is a 16th-century glass panel showing Edward VI holding a book and sceptre” ……… so very interesting there is also an image of Edward lV there too?

    Like

    1. Its my understanding that this is the very same portrait of Edward V as shown in my post except it has been wrongly identified as Edward VI. This may be because the costume is Tudor style. But it would have been if the portrait had been created in the early 16th century.

      Like

    1. Marion, yes I did notice but I wasn’t 100% sure. That’s why I omitted to mention it….I’m glad you think it could be a Yorkist rose too !

      Like

  2. Sparkypus, perceptive post from you, fabulous photographs too! Most of us, I think, have our own ideas as to what happened to the young sons of E4 that summer of 1483 and this certainly does not conflict with my own theories. I have to ask you though, I’m just itching, after Bosworth, in your article here, you mention this Evans turned up in Coldridge (actually if it was Edward, he was still 14, not yet 15, until November) but where do you think he had been, and with whom, sheltered by whom, and why did that shelter come to an end? For myself I have my own suggestion that would sync up nicely with your material here and pretty much also solves – for me anyway – why I don’t have a resolution to his post-Bosworth shelter.

    The connection to Dorset too, is a very good one. H7 kept virtually anyone of any worth under financial constraints and obligations, and initially this would seem to be pure greed, but aside from that likelihood, it was also Henry was under near continuous rebellion from Bosworth onward, admittedly factional and sporadic and much of it based in the north, but he was not by any means guaranteed to still be on the throne by Christmas 1485. As a consequence Henry, his mother, his counselors, the very makers of his coup, kept a tight rein on anyone with influence or status from the prior Yorkist reigns, those that weren’t in the Tower (and think about those that were!) were held in the greatest suspicion – like Dorset, he was never really comfortably placed with H7, and his mother, QEW even less so.

    Sparkypus, I congratulate you, now I have a new muddle to play with! Where was this Evans before Bosworth? Can you find any records of him? Marriage, properties owned, leased, rents, a will? Children?

    Anyway, from the tiniest scraps you may reap huge dividends, and certainly first of those is that Richard did indeed place the boy in what we would today call a ‘safehouse’ after the plots of the summer 1483 to wrest them from the haha security of the Tower – could be the Tyrell location in Gipping often cited, could be somewhere else, or perhaps Richard split them up (my preference in this matter, especially as he has already set a determinate pattern) – one wonders if it wasn’t Lovell who was meant to stay behind and keep him safe, since we are fairly certain Lovell was not at Bosworth. And why didn’t Lovell take Evans (at 14) into sanctuary with him? How did he get to Coldridge? Couldn’t have been Dorset, Henry left Dorset behind in France, suspecting disloyalty from Dorset once the grand invasion of his PAID for foreign mercenaries of Scots, Bretons and French troops landed in England … so who connected this teen with his road to Coldridge? Not Tyrell, he was in Calais. And all the other known loyalists to Richard died with him (Devereux, Brackenbury, probably Nesfield, etc) so Sparkypus, to say you have me intrigued is to put it mildly!

    Like

    1. Im just replying quickly here to one of your points – i hope to get to the others later – you pointed out that Dorset was out of the picture after Bosworth – perhaps we should look no further than Cecily Bonville! Devon lands would have been Bonville lands and Dorset acquired them through his marriage. No doubt Cicely was left in charge of the estates in the absence of her husband. Did she receive a request from her mother-in-law, Elizabeth Wydeville, immediately after Bosworth and prior to Elizabeth being sent to Bermondsey to give a safe haven to her young brother in law? Had Richard advised Elizabeth where her son/s was prior to his defeat at Bosworth – and did EW get him safely to Devon in the days following Bosworth terrified that if Edward fell into the hands of Tudor that would be the end of him? More questions eh?

      Like

    2. Hi Amma..in further reply to your post and your question if JE was indeed EV where had he been sheltering up until then. We are never going to know but we can speculate. Wherever he was and who ever was sheltering him up to Bosworth – the turn of events at Bosworth meant those arrangements could no longer continue for some reason or another. Possibly Richard had placed him somewhere and informed his mother of his whereabouts. Perhaps Edward and his mother were even reunited and living together. When Richard was defeated at Bosworth did EW and family seek another place of safety this being Coldridge with his sister-in-law Cicely Bonville? On the other hand it’s possible it could even have been HT himself who agreed Edward could be left alone and in peace as long as he stayed incognito. After all he, Henry, intended to marry his sister. Was that perhaps part of the marriage negotiations? His brother, if he was indeed PW did not fare so well as he sought to overturn HT and take the crown. Thus he had to go. Perhaps Edward/John Evans had come to the decision, which is now lost to us, that he wanted to live a peaceful and simple life away from all the dangers that ex-heirs to the throne could find themselves. And who could blame him?

      Furthermore records etc., are extremely rare regarding Evans…we dont know whether he was married or had children. Perhaps the lack of records indicate there was no marriage and no children. Of course if he had only been in existence since 1483 that would explain the lack of birth records etc., wouldnt it?

      Liked by 1 person

  3. well Sparkypus (there has to be a story behind that screen name), we sync up on several points! I know more about Cecily Bonville’s mother than I do about her, the daughter, so I had to scramble through my notes to get up to speed to respond to your comments. Between 1485-87 Cecily, now about 25-26, would have been capable of at least nominal management of her estates and lands (she was presumably continuously pregnant from 1477 onward in order to provide Thomas with 14 children, I believe 11 survived to adulthood, a remarkable statistic all on its own!) – I had probs finding the birth dates for her children before Bosworth (Thomas, 1477, Leonard, 1478 and Dororthy 1480) and no dates for those born after Bosworth – be that as it may – we DO know that Richard was assiduous in respecting and insuring the rights and protection of both Cecily’s and her mother’s lands so neither were tampered with despite political tensions with their respective husbands. (I could spend hours discussing the Hastings situation!)

    Keep in mind Katherine Neville Bonville Hastings was a direct family member TO Richard, she was his cousin, as was Warwick (brother of this Katherine), and had had a horrific life story as a young bride/mother well before she was married off to Hastings. Richard, if nothing else, seems to have been acutely aware of the collateral damage the civil war he was born into (and spent his whole life in the middle of) also cost women and children – NOT that Prof Hicks takes note of such sensitivity (IF I ever had the chance to debate Hicks, on Countess Oxford alone, I could leave him weeping and begging for mercy, he is THAT misguided on that issue!)

    So, let us assume that Cecily had proper management in place of her estates, and while understandably busy with the care of her husband’s heir (and who knows how many others), and let us assume that she was in contact with dowager queen Elizabeth (DQEW), and let us assume that DQEW did indeed know where Richard had placed both of her sons during the summer of 1483. She was not concerned about the younger of the two, he was already, in my opinion, well on his way to the care of ‘someone’ – could have been Brampton, or a factor of Brampton’s, may have been a family based in one of Margaret’s dower lands (ex. in the Dendermonde?), wherevere the younger Richard was DQEW was not worried.

    It was the young Edward – I think – who may have been at risk with Richard’s sudden death at Bosworth. (THAT alone begs questions, did she know about Percy’s imminent betrayal? William Stanley’s? Did she know but was unable to get msgs to him in time, or presumably recognized that R had sufficient spies to know and had made plans for all the children in his charge if things did not work out as planned). If so then I revert back to my theory, that Edward was placed with Lovell’s people at Minster Hall, and it was Lovell who was to keep him safe during the coming assault against Henry and his merry band of reprobate exiles, recalcitrant Lancastrians and foreign mercenaries.

    We do know that MInster Lovell was given to Jasper right after Bosworth, so that avenue of a ‘safehouse’ was over, Edward would not have been there, or if he was, then he was trapped there and Lovell, now off to sanctuary, would have had to rely on ….? to secure the boy out of the Hall and presumably a new safehouse. Henry would NOT have been a safehouse. I repeat, Henry or better, his mother, would have been the worst possibly option for young Edward, unless you think Edward of Warwick’s life was one to envy!

    The proof that DQEW knew her sons were alive and safely moved out of London, is found in her permitting Richard to care for her daughters, arrange marriages for them, bring them to his court, etc, to publically vouch for their very lives … ye gods, can you imagine ANY Tudor doing that AND anyone believing them?!!!

    As to Cecily herself, I don’t think she played any role in Richard’s own coronation, and that would be a real indicator of where she placed in his court politics, he wasn’t going to tread upon her inheritance and rights but I doubt he trusted her with either of the young sons of his brother either. He kept young Warwick with him for the Progress, knighted him at York, (Dorset’s sons were likely too young for such consideration even if Richard wanted to bring them into the fold and do so), Richard treated young Warwick as if he was a real human, an actual family member, and not the golden goose of properties and prospects that Dorset (who held his wardship and marriage) had done. I have never found ONE citation of any proof that Warwick had had a tutor, ever, not with Dorset, and not the entire 14 years of isolation imprisonment with Tudor. The two brief years with richard may well have been the closest thing young Warwick would ever know of what life was like – other than “next up for the block!” WHY no one has done a full investigative bio on Warwick is shocking, where are the trial transcripts, why aren’t they published along with every other measly scrap of Tudortrivia??? I haven’t even been able to find any leads as to where to find them! Presumably in the TNA, buried somewhere, but access I hazard to suggest is unlikely to those making a general request.

    Sorry, got wayyyyy off topic here. You’ve put a bug in my ear Sparkypus, if you wish to continue this please do so, but I warn you, I ramble! lol

    amma

    bwilliam@rcbc.edu

    ps. BTW, how totally weird are the marriages of this period?! Henry 2nd duke of Buckingham, his 2nd son, marries this same Cecily, some 19-20 yrs older than himself, after Dorset died, to the horror and disgust of the heir, fearing Bucky’s son would grift untold fortunes from his addled widowed mother! Even the BBC would have a hard time selling that one, IF it hadn’t actually happened!)

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Hi. The portrait “of John Evans, who if he was indeed Edward would have been around 41 when he died” has eye asymmetry. Likewise Richard of Shrewsbury. They write about him that he could inherit an genetic eye condition. (“Considering the fact that a genetic eye disorder, known as congenital ptosis, ‘drooping eyelid’, seems to have occurred in the Plantagenet line of Yorkist descendants” https://www.revealingrichardiii.com/pdfs/Bulletin_June_2020_Tournament_Tapestry_Letters%20_x2.pdf)
    In this way, this is indirect evidence of the royal origin of John Evans.

    Liked by 2 people

      1. Thank you ☺ I am 100% convinced that Perkin Warbeck was indeed Richard, son of Edward IV. Indirect evidence: Margaret of York (she died on the day of execution of PW) and The Tournament Tapestry
        John Evans lived to be about 41 years old, like his “father”, Edward IV. Also looks like a bad heredity

        Liked by 2 people

  5. to both you, Sparkypus, and Tanya-salpe, as per the eye anomalies in the Plantagenet line, add in the ‘caste to his eye’ noted in references about Perkin Warbeck – which could mean, in my opinion, anything from a “drooping eyelid” to drooping with a haze caused by actual physical damage or another and intentional but coded meaning to supporters of Warbeck.

    He had several cells operating in England and on the Continent, and curiously, the most ‘modern’ use of espionage practiced at the time, certainly nothing like it in England. Warbeck’s curious eye issues may have been nothing more than that slight droop to one eye lid, as with EV? And for myself, Warbeck was Richard of Shrewsbury and Sparkypus, I am leaning more and more towards your EV as his brother, I just need to get the connective tissues between his whereabouts after Bosworth and his emergence as EV teased out, but it is promising.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ive never been 100% sure of Perkin Warbeck. His story is odd is some parts but tbh Ive never gone into it to a great extent. I do feel if PW was Richard of Shrewsbury then his end was horrifying. Imagine his childhood, utterly indulged and then to have ended up on a scaffold with his face bashed in. Of course his rather strange story about he was spared whereas Edward was murdered now makes sense because he was, obviously, trying to protect the identity of his brother who was living, successfully incognito in Devon. It doesnt bear thinking about tbh. But Im as certain as I can be that JE was indeed Edward V. His whereabouts between 1483 and 1485 we can only speculate about, I think, but to me the most important thing is that he turned up in 1485. And of course this absolves Richard III from the so called ‘murder’ of his nephews…which is a win win.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. S. sorry I am late getting back to you, I have an ongoing project. One of the most enjoyable and unexpected benefits to some research is just trolling through material without any real idea that something might turn up or be useful or lead to something else. The hustings, records of wills, are like that for me, as are the Common Pleas records, what people actually sued each other over (some cases leave me with eye popping disbelief) and what is left in their wills, fascinates me. All the fine poetry and illuminated manuscripts one can name cannot compete, in my opinion, with what emerges from such mundane real-world information. For example, the sheer volume of litigation brought by Edward 3rd duke, (son and heir of our Richard’s cousin, Henry Stafford, 2nd duke of Buckingham), literally a never ending parade of legal sniffy complaints, tells me more about him as a fully realized human than anecdotal tidbits about his presumed avarice or love for Margaret Beaufort who raised him (he was placed with her as a ward, immediately after Bosworth; perhaps his trait for avarice was conditional to the environment he was raised in?)

        That is why I think mining such sources might be quite helpful, JE had to have left some paper trail, somewhere, and whatever that trail is will give clues as to where he had been – S. you are seriously intriguing me here! My project will need to deal with young Edward, not at this moment, I have him safely removed from London by September, I even know how to explain Dr Argentyne’s peculiar testimony that the child was openly awaiting death, allegedly, in the report from Cato’s hack (spy) Mancini – all of that is quite easy to explain without any of it being part of Richard’s intent to ‘destroy’ his brothers’ sons. Lovell’s move into sanctuary after Bosworth is a problem for me, but I have time before tackling that irritant, and that just gives me more time to troll in research, my first love. Check out the TNA, peruse the Common Pleas and other assorted docs that are out there, just for fun, it is fascinating, I particularly found that a man who appeared to look “Scottish” was enough to be immediately hauled off and tossed into jail! Check the dates, from 1480 onward the fear of border war and E4’s incipient campaigns north into Scotland, led by Richard, was a constant reality, spies and informers ran over those borders at will. I just love this stuff. If I had ten more hands and another 24 hours a day I would be chasing down your JE, oh heck, I may just do that anyway!

        Like

  6. Dear Tanya-salpe, I very very very bad! When I think of Warbeck I think of only Edward of Warwick’s grotesque ILLEGAL, contemptible murder on the 29th! I read your comment, concerning the 23rd and thought, what? How shocking, and it’s like a double whammy, Warbeck’s hideous, ruinous murder, then Warwick’s murder 6 days later! I’m working on a proper map of London, as Richard would know it, c. 1483, (you have NO idea what a mess that is!) and disentangling details pertinent to 1483 are hard to find and ascertain as legitimate and competent for cross-referencing, and during this process I came across the tavern (the Kyng’shede in Chepesyde, a stone house since 1414) where Warbeck was made to stand on a scaffold in front of it (not cited in Harben, oddly enough, but the 1520 map and Gazetteer mentions it, p.78) and that just brings the whole sickening horror of his treatment home, doesn’t it!?

    As much as H7 has sometimes, rarely, occasionally, been tut-tutted for these dual murders (necessary, allowing either or both Warbeck and Warwick to live was holding up that grand dynastic marriage of Arthur and Katharine of Aragon, mercy!) I am actually more disgusted by Elizabeth of York! She routinely gets a pass, with writers, historians, everyone, apparently the woman was the equivalent of warmed over mush, pretty but witless. HAD she been the stuff of her aunt Margaret of York, or her grandmother Cecily dowager duchess of York, omg, history would have been quite different! I have no doubt Richard would have managed to work out an arrangement with a quantity similar to the two women he was closest to in his family, who he most resembled in natural inclination and personality, and possibly he would have, as Protector, dealt with his niece rather than her mother (who had all that baggage concerning Clarence and his death).

    As to the illegitimacy, that is a discussion I relish, but had Richard been forced to acknowledge it (seriously WHO did not know about E4’s proclivities? Peter Hancock mentions some 4 pre-contracted marriages BEFORE the one with Elizabeth Woodville! and very possibly it is the reason Clarence was eliminated, because he not only knew too much he was foolish enough to pass along such info – to someone like Louis XI when he was in France, perhaps? the mind reels at how many people knew, certainly about Talbot, daughter of E4’s own father’s favored chief lieutenant in France, hardly a social non quantity!

    Here is another fun thing to consider, what if Sparkypus’ JE is young Edward and he inherited a similar spinal scoliosis like his uncle Richard? At 12-13 in 1483 it may have only just begun to present itself, by 1485 it would have been developing, and if anyone would have known the signs it would have been his uncle. I find it impossible to believe Richard would have been insensitive to a blood relative experiencing what he himself went through, and knew what would yet develop. He may well have kept Edward in hiding, and preferred to elevate the sister to higher position, through marriage, and if she was like his mother and sister, imagine her as the first Queen Elizabeth! And in her own right! I have never thought much of the rumours that he, Richard, put it out there that he intended to marry his niece, THAT would have been the sort of tripe her mother, the dowager queen, would have been sly enough to spread, or Margaret Beaufort, believing as is often the case, that a rumour is more powerful than an army in the field!

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Very interested to see your presentation on the Coldridge Church Mystery. I am leading the Devon team under Philippa Langley’s Missing Princes Project investigating this fascinating and intriguing mystery for the last three years.

    I am happy to answer any specific questions of interest. In particular the equation to be solved JE=E5?

    This video is worth a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVsqR26RqO4&t=43s

    Best wishes
    John Dike

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Thank you John. This post has received over 2700 views so far on my little known blog. Which I find rather pleasing as if it opens a few peoples eyes to the probability Richard III did not murder his nephews will be very satisfactory for me. Thank you.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Dear Sparkypus, you may think yours is a little known blog but it is a very well considered one and finely presented, a nice mix between academic and popular interests with neither being slighted. It will become much better known, I am sure, alot has to do with word of mouth, you will see, and thank you for all your very dedicated posts, I am a HUGE fan!

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Well, Sparkypus, check you out! Tanya is a Russian Ricardian! I love it! See the reach your fine blog has Sparkypus?!! I am in contact with another RIcardian that I met on Murrey&Blue, we exchange emails often as per our own projects, I will pass along this blog as you have such a intriguing reader base!

    BTW, totally off topic, I am in need of some clarification, if anyone knows, on the manner of medieval taverns, inns, brewhouses, etc, that would have been in use in London during 1483, or just the period of Edward IV and his brothers. The info seems so sketchy, as to the differences between a tavern, an inn, a brewhouse, even the actual introduction of beer, rather than ale (quite often brewed at home, and being unhopped would go ‘off’ within days) which does not appear to have been commonly available till at least mid 1500’s. When I do find material on taverns or inns it is either for a much later date (ie. after Richard) or well before (again, as in Chaucer)…. even establishing which establishment WAS a brewhouse rather than a tavern or a proper Inn (often that meaning a fine townhouse of some noble or cleric) is a ordeal! Any help would be welcome, and thanks! Most of what I have found so far I have culled from Hustings records!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. 𝙏𝙖𝙣𝙮𝙖 𝙞𝙨 𝙖 𝙍𝙪𝙨𝙨𝙞𝙖𝙣 𝙍𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙧𝙙𝙞𝙖𝙣!

      Not, Amma! I am U͟k͟r͟a͟i͟n͟i͟a͟n͟ , not Russian ☹
      mirrinminttu is Russian from Finland, i not she

      Like

    2. Thank you once again Amma. So Tanya is Ukranian. I get to see what countries posts are being viewed in and its surprising – all over the world. Sorry cant help with your question about taverns etc.., I hope someone can though…

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hi Sparkypus, I’m not surprised at the range of interest for Richard, especially since his rediscovery and reburial became news around the world even for those who had never heard of him. What he would make of all this I cannot say, probably it would be less of a shock than if he were to learn how his honor and personal integrity, the very essence of what he thought he was as a man has been so utterly shredded with lies, purposeful slander and mischaracterization. As an American I do not “have a dog in this fight” as the saying goes, but the sheer injustice of what was done to his life and name, literally before Bosworth and most assuredly after Bosworth, appalls me, just on the human level. Outright theft of a man’s honor is still theft and it involves the most base and intimate form!

        I can almost understand writers, chroniclers, ‘historians’ who crept along in the wake of Richard’s death – Henry established the narrative early on with blame for the Princes (through his informers, diplomats, spies), he held the landed (nobility et al) classes in a vice of recognizances, bonds, attainders, others in the Tower, and while the ‘Tudor dynasty’ was a short one it was also a massively vicious one, if you were insane enough to speak of them in anything but glowing terms they could and would destroy you, and throw in torture to boot, regardless age, sex, status, prior loyalty or service. And destroy your family, your children, your career. They exterminated their own family.

        The wonder to me is not that their contemporaries, like a Shakespeare, or even Thomas More, were too freaked out to write anything but slavish, if clever, propaganda, it’s that MODERN writers, scholars, historians too are seemingly in the squeamish thrall of the Tudors, afraid to ask the simplest questions, to chuck the mantras aside and re-investigate everything! DO they not realise that they are safe from the rack? That bloated Harry with the ulcerated leg can’t order anyone to be dragged out in a fit of foaming spite because you want to see the trial records for Edward of Warwick, or ask how the hell he gets away with beheading cousin Edmund de la Pole or racking Anne Askew before he burns her, and just because her brand of Protestantism was perhaps genuine, unlike his own which was opportunistic, all smash the abbeys and take the profits!

        Sparkypus, it is the gutlessness of modern scholars and historians that annoy me, they should not fear that puny ‘dynasty’ of too often petty mediocrities, but see them for what they were: an avaricious, narcissistic and brutally vengeful but thankfully short lived family! Imagine this, Elizabeth I had to hand over the English crown to the Scots not because they couldn’t defend the country, not because the people clamored for Scottish rule, not because they felt culturally and socially inferior to the Scots, but because the Tudors had committed genocide against their own family. There was no one left.

        sorry for the rant, long day of research!

        Liked by 1 person

  10. Tanya, forgive me!!!! My father’s family came from the Ukraine, although I could not tell you where, my grandfather passed before I was born and my grandmother’s English was never very good. But I can tell you that she um, despised, all things Russian! I believe her family sent her over to the US around 1910? with a sister, she was farm girl, and took one look at New York city and was truly overwhelmed! As in hated it! As soon as she could she was out on Long Island, when that was mostly rural and open country, IF you can imagine such a thing today, and returned to farming. My father, Karol, was her youngest, her favorite, but I am sorry to say he only wanted to know English, he literally taught us nothing to say in Ukrainian, I envy your knowledge of my grandparents’ homeland, if you can believe it, they did not even know how to read, or write! On the census forms, there are only an “x”‘s for their signatures, as late as the 1950’s! I apologize, truly, mea culpa!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Just came across this, and very impressed by the extra amount of detail you have discovered about John Evans and the church, expecially that stained glass fragmentthat I had not taken into account.

    I wrote that Coldridge article (I write them all) and space precluded too much depth as I am about the church more than anything. But totally delighted this is getting publicity.

    And appreciate the full credits and backlinks.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. This theory is now popping up on my Richard III pages on Facebook which would account for the numbers of new readers, myself included. It’s intriguing indeed, and persuasive. I look forward to further scholarship on the matter.

    I agree with the poster above who remarked that a man prominent enough to have been knighted by Henry VII must have left a paper trail of some sort. Has anyone tried the Devon County Record Office? I hope their holdings weren’t bombed in Plymouth during the war!

    The Courtney family papers might hold some references, as the most prominent local family, and Catholic to boot. You never know where items might crop up.

    Like

    1. Since I wrote that post I have been in contact with John Dike who is leading Philippa Langley’s Missing Princes Project in Devon. see Today’s post. From what I have learned since then I no longer think that John Evans was knighted by Tudor even though Prof HIcks has him as Sir John Evans in his bio of Edward V.

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: